MLB Civil Rights Game (I refussed to go)

[Biggin]

and none of his fights were ever in question

ricky hatton was supposed to stop him, he got embarrassed.

[royalflush]

You say the level of competition is much better now, but in some ways it isn't. Lennox Lewis, I feel, was extremely underated because there were no heavyweights that really pushed him or anybody he could build a rivalry with.

[Gotch]

I wasn't intending to give a complete list. Boxing today is a circus and I seldom watch it, but yeah Mayweather should be considered among the greats, as should Roy Jones (recent events notwithstanding).

Duran is one of, if not the best lightweight ever, anything he did beyond lightweight is simply icing on the cake. Yeah, he fought way too long and at way too heavy of divisions. Doesn't change how good he was at his prime weight.

Never said anything about records making the ranking. If I felt that way I wouldn't have put Ali in the top 25. He earned a top 10 or 12 in my book by fighting some good people and with his skill level when "on".

I'll tell you something that only someone that got to train with some of the old-school guys and then the modern era guys could really appreciate or understand.

The modern era fighters may be better athletes, although not as much better as some people think. But, the true "art" of boxing is lost. Proper footwork, angles, bodywork, leverage on the inside, it's all lost. The last generation who had a good grasp of it is pretty much gone and by gone I mean dead, not retired.

The guys today are not nearly as tough either, seriously, they didn't face the constant threat of starvation, the harsh conditions that the old guys did. You had to just about kill some of the old-timers to beat them. A lot of the modern guys, even the good ones, have a heck of a lot of quit in them.

Ray Robinson isn't ranked number one all time by pretty much anybody who actually knows boxing based on his record alone. Simply watch film of him angling, turning his opponent, slipping punches and countering with lighting fast combos. The guy was truly a different level then and a far different skill level than you see today.

As far as being tested, it's the modern era guys who aren't tested. The old timers fought in divisions with 13 and 14 pound ranges, most guy they fought seriously wanted to beat them, not just pick up a pay check, and they often fought every 4 or 5 weeks. There was no ducking fighters for very long and there were not multiple champions per division, just one, and he fought everybody in the division who was any good.

[Gotch]

If you think an art (in sports) can't be lost look at the art of catch submission aka hooking. It nearly became extinct, the few old guys (and they are very old) who were top level guys at it and are still around and willing to show it always amaze the best of today's mma guys when they show the art. Billy Robinson who is 70 years old and about the youngest of these guys absolutely astounds the best mma guys at seminars.

Also, the quality of the athletes seems to be an issue. I would almost concede that one if I hadn't seen a study of Jesse Owens and his times compared to modern sprinters. What they determined was that if you put the modern sprint champions on the same cinder track and in the same shoes as Jesse, they run even times with Jesse maybe holding a slight edge.

Legendary wrestler Frank Gotch prepared for big matches as follows;
5 mile run in morning
1 hour of handball
3 hour of sparring with 3 rotating partners
1 hour of technique
1 hour of body weight training / strength training with no free weights
15 minutes of flexibility work
cool down with 3 mile run in evening

In his 1908 match with George Hackenschmidt his plan was to wear Hack down on the feet (it was a submission match that included pins as a way to win) he kept the match on the feet of 2 hours and 3 minutes (no rounds & no time limit in those days), until he felt he had Hack exhausted.

Gotch was good friends with and trained with several of the top boxers of the era, including Kid McCoy and Jim Jefferies. They were in similar condition.

[R13]

I'll take Tyson in his prime against most of those greats, seriously. He was so dominant mid/late 80's is was unreal. He is/was just completely crazy, years of built up anger and was truly the Baddest Man on the Planet then. IMO He could take just about anyone that got in that ring, he was looking to hurt you big time.

[starbuck]

sorry, Tyson woudn't have taken most of the fighters of the 70's and early 80's. The guys that knew how to fight would have know how to take Tyson down. Tyson would have been a good fighter back in the day but Tyson was a big fish in a small pond when he was so "great"

[R13]

Tyson was fast, strong, powerful, good defense and crazy. Went 37-0 and if you don't count Douglas fluke win, 45-0. He was ridiculously good, people don't want to respect him because of his bad attitude..but I'd jump in the ring with most of those great fighters before him, than I would Tyson. He scared the hell out of anyone in the ring and that wasn't an accident, he was a **** good all-around fighter.

[Gotch]

With Mike Tyson it really wasn't about Mike Tyson, it was about Kevin Rooney. You have the Rooney era Tyson and the post Rooney era Tyson. That was the thing that separated his two very different careers.

Rooney of course was closely tied to Cus D'Amato who just happens to be one of those now gone old-time trainers who have taken so much boxing knowledge to the grave with them that I was talking about.

Mike Tyson under Kevin Rooney was in shape, aggressive, and entered the ring with good fight plans. He kept his knees bent which allowed him to be more mobile, made him a smaller target, created tremendous power (punches start from the ground up - old boxing saying), he used constant head movement, he fired off in combinations, he was indeed very, very good.

In fact, I hardly ever say this because most people think of Tyson and they think of the post Rooney Tyson, but I also believe he may have been the best heavyweight ever for a very short period of time, a very small window, so to say. After he had gained some experience but before the split with Rooney. He was indeed a force. Darius Stanley and I use to watch films of his fights from this era over and over. He was a monster.

But

The post Rooney Tyson was a short heavyweight who walked in standing straight up, making him an easy target with poor reach to fire back. He was no longer in shape in many cases, his head simply wasn't in the fight many times. His power was greatly diminished due to not having his knees bent and not getting his legs into his punches. He went from being a monster to being a dangerous but very manageable opponent.

It's hard to rank him really high because his window of true greatness was so small.

[royalflush]

Tyson was great and I love watching his old fights, but he really didn't have a true rival either. I just don't see him having that defenitive victory.

[Gotch]

Tyson was great and I love watching his old fights, but he really didn't have a true rival either. I just don't see him having that defenitive victory.

That's true.

A couple of things to add to my post above. Cus D'Amato of course also raised Tyson.

The "crazy" Tyson was not the dominate Tyson, Rooney was able to keep him in line reasonably well.

Tyson had already split with Rooney before the Douglas fight. The first thing I noticed going downhill was that he almost immediately stopped keeping his knees bent and staying low after Rooney stopped training him. This is why Douglas was able to pot-shot him. He was a short heavyweight standing straight up asking to be punched in the face and Douglas obliged.

Even at his very best Tyson wasn't even in the same league with Ray Robinson p4p